Understanding Atheism

halffoot

No problem, as I said, human spirituality and the role is plays is something that interests me, so I'm enjoying this.

Theres a quote my social psychology teacher always used to use thats relevant here, "The mind is what the brain does."(George Paige). The idea of the soul is basically a spiritual version of the mind. It is your essence, what makes you, you. However, there are mounds of evidence that show that peoples minds can be effected, by all manner of physical things: electric shock, head trauma, electromagnetic fields, chemicals, etc. Theres a famous case in psychology where this college kid, your average all American boy; excelled in school, worked hard, etc; got a job working for a lawn fertilizing company. One day he was spraying some lawns and he had to go to the bathroom, he didn't think anyone was home, so decided rather than driving away and coming back for a bathroom trip, he would just pee in the mulch underneath the deck. Now, it turns out he was wrong, and this lady was home, and she came out and confronted him, yelling and screaming about how she was going to get him fired, and he panicked and a strange thing happened, he killed her. Now, the boy had no history of violence, and later on, he said he had no idea why he did it, he just reached out and snapped her neck without thinking. It turns out, they did some studies, and the chemical he was spraying the lawn with blocked the uptake of certain neurotransmitters that limited fight or flight responses, so when the lady threatened him, instinct took over and the mind was shunted aside(he was eventually let off for the crime). Basically what this means, to me at least, is that the soul or mind are not this vaporous thing floating somewhere out in the ether, but rather, just the function of the physical, like the data on a computer. Now, I'm not saying people are computers, we don't have to follow things like logic because of the minds control over the body, but its interesting to examine these ideas with respect to cases like these, to view that the bodies fight or flight response is not as deeply buried as we like to believe.

You misunderstood what I said. If you read the articles, one of them mentions brain scans they did on a budhist monk while he was meditating, and they noticed the same patterns as he reached his religious climax as they did in the TLE patients or the people hooked up to Dr. Persinger's machine. I dont believe that all religious people are suffering from temporal lobe anomalies, rather, I believe that the temporal lobes are the area of the brian linked to religious feeling, and that anomalous behavior in them can lead to all sorts of strange phenomena, such as when Moses heard God's voice from a burning bush. Modern religions are often based on 'prophets' who claimed that 'god spoke to them', and those are the people I believe are anomalous, everyone else is just doing what evolution made them to do. Religion is a coping mechanism.

As I said before, no, because religion, and, more to the point, spirituality and general, are regular functions of the mind, having such doesn't make you mentally ill at all. Now, before you even suggest it, no, that doesn't mean I think atheists in general are mentally ill, rather, that they are either less inclined through their personal biology to such behaviors, or that they fulfill their spiritual needs in other ways.

On the other hand, its really hard to say what society, which is moving towards more secular views, will do in regards to religion and the religious in the future. I've said it before, but I think a lot of the anti-theist legislation and action we see in the culture right now is just the equal and opposite reaction to the pro-theist movements and legislations within the government. I believe a truly secular society would/should leave religion to its own devices, as long as it stayed out of the legislature, but a lot of the 'secular' politicians today seem to take an equally illogical approach in trying to squelch religion in the public circle as the highly religious politicians in trying to enforce it.

Haha, I don't explain away such things at all, rather, I believe they serve to prove the point.

EMF = Electromagnetic field.

As for heat and temperature data, anyone who works with electromagnetism will tell you its a very powerful force, and it wouldn't surprise me if the electromagnetic fluctuations were responsible for such data.

I'm not necessarily saying UFO's arent real, but lets think again about what a ufo is.

UFO = Unidentified Flying Object

Nothing in that says little green men to me, and, I said it in the UFO article you posted before, its probably experimental government aircraft. The phenomena I believe temporal lobe anomalies explain are more along the lines of the extremely vivid non-quantifiable claims and abduction reports.

tokinGLX

my beliefs are centered around reality, or rational, potential reality. as an athiest, please keep in mind that i most deffinately do not represent the point of view of all atheists, nor do their views necessarily correspond in any way to mine. the thing about "being" an atheist is that you arent anything. and at the exact same time, bits and peices of certain religious elements may apply to their own beliefs

religion was invented to explain things that were out of our grasp at the time. early man did not know why the sun rose and set, why the moon and the stars moved about the sky, what the sky was, etc. so every single scattered society came up with their own beliefs.

some religions incorporated or focused on teaching moral goodness. the ones that dealt only with this did so extremely well.

eventually, new religions would form that would borrow bits and pieces from others, make up some new stories and be off and running. many would stay confined to small communities and die off, but one such religion stuck around. later on in that religions life, a new branch of it emerged.

this new branch of this old religion would take it in a totally different direction, preaching kindness and acceptance rather than instilling the fear of god into people in order to keep social stability.

what a lot of people dont know is that this new branch of christianity was taken from the teachings of buddha. many people say(and quite rightly so, the more you look into the matter) that the entire new testament is just a translated(and, in time, retranslated, edited, and then translated and edited some more) carbon copy of buddhist teachings.

so....uh..in short, thats(one of the many reasons) why i cant possibly see the logic in anybody actually believing that christianity could ever possibly be the "one, true religion."

but anyways, that does nothing to explain what my beliefs are. well, like i mentioned, im a realist. in being such, i search for an alternate to the genesis version to the origin of life. the creator is a central part to many religions, and to prove non divine creation would be a major start to disprove the "creator" aspect of religion.

back in the 50s, a couple of scientists by the names of miller and urey conducted an experiment that tested a previously written hypothesis. in the experiment, they combined the elements that were the dominant constituents of an early earth environment and passed an electical charge through them.
the results were the formation of amino acids, organic compounds, and other building blocks of life. now this obviously is not clear evidence of a viable means of creating life, but it is a means to create, from essentially nothing, the basis for life to start.
and that right there fills me with more ....faith....than any of the creation stories of the bible.

you see my choice, to belive in this more realistic way of looking at things, as an escape from guilt. what guilt am i running from?
have i not lived a good life, am i not a good person, simply because i choose to think that your idea of a god is silly? according to your religion, i will suffer for eternity. meanwhile, people like jeffery dahmer commit horrendous acts of violence upon other humans, and then tell a priest that they are sorry. so right now, he is up in heaven, kickin it with the other good lil souls of the world. how does that make you feel?

i believe that when we die, our minds and bodies cease to work. same thing that happens when a dog dies, or when a tree dies, or when any other living object dies. the only difference between us and other animals is a more developed brain, vocal cords and a slight difference in dna coding. what is it about humans that make christians think that they are so much better than everything else in their environment?

you say that an athiest lives a two dimensional exsistence.
?
how exactly do you mean? by not tying myself down to a doctrine laid out a couple thousand years ago, defining for me what is and is not allowed in life?
far as i can see, being involved with a religion is what lands a person in a two dimensional life. "hm....can i do this...well, lets consult the bible and see if it says that i can."
kindof takes out all of the actual...thinking for oneself part of life.

and how can you say that simply because i do not believe in a god i have nothing in life to strive for? do i not get to seek enjoyment of life?

you say that i have turned my back on my heart and soul.
well, what is a "soul" exactly? where can i find it in my body?
by heart im guessing youre not meaning the word in the biological sense. and once again, im at a loss trying to figure out how it is that i have forsaken my....being, simply because i think that christianity is ludicrous.

and as far as religion teaching morals....do you really think that before god gave the world the 10 commandments, people thought it was perfectly fine to kill people, fuck their wives, and take their things? morals are taught in the church, but they can, and usually are learned in life far before a kid has any understanding of what a "commandment" is.

i know, in my heart, in the pit of my soul, what it means to be a good person. and i act accordingly. i also prefer to take responsibility for my own actions. i dont believe that when i fuck up, a demon had taken posession of me. i dont rely on god to carry me when times get tough, because god wont put food in my belly or a roof over my head at night.

if i were to give definition to anything as a "god" i would tip my hat to the force of homeostasis.

hm...a bowl later and im thinking more on what you meant by saying living a two dimensional life.
are you talking about your afterlife, and our lacktherof?
because i find that very interesting. to you, life on earth is a very, very short start of a long journey. what you do here doesnt matter so much, as long as you live by the rules, you can have pleasure eternal.
well, my heaven is here, on earth, right now. every day is a chance to seek my pleasures in life and indulge them. so by not partaking of them, i am denying myself my own personal heaven.

and being a realist, i am most definately open to new ideas so long as they present a logical point. the realm of religion and metaphysics often blurs into one....and in the end, i find it easier to just call myself a stoner. that way when i start rambling on about stuff like this, people just smile and nod, knowing where im comming from.




edit....its been awhile since ive written a novella-post. what can i say, its what happens when i get stoned and start typing
(':

Torog

Howdy undertheice,

When you say that there's a point at which the mind ceases to exist, where does the 21 grams of weight go that every body loses at the moment of death ? To me,the 21 grams could very well represent the gravity well of the soul..that is to say that the soul is a coherent body of energy that has a physical effect on the physical world.

When you claim that I associate atheism with immorality,I do so because it seems to me,that atheists by their very nature,are not humble..can one be selfless towards one's fellow human,without humility ? Atheists appear arrogant and narcisstic to me,because they place their trust in themselves and their fellow humans,even though no human is perfect..which makes me think that the only thing that binds atheists to moral behaviour,is fear of Man's laws. If one believes in Darwin and that Nature is calculated for survival of the strongest,then to be a survivor,would not morality be a prohibiting factor ?

Are there any examples of a successful atheist society ?

In regards to the supernatural,I'm mostly referring to ghosts and spirits and the evidence that seems to show that it's possible for an imprint of energy to be left behind that repeats itself in a loop and the evidence ,in the case of spirits,that there is intelligent guidance of percievable energy.

Have a good one ...

__________________
God Bless Those Who Choose To Protect Our Freedom !

Torog

Howdy tokingglx,

I'll git back to yer 'novella' soon,thanx for yer considered reply !

Have a good one !

__________________
God Bless Those Who Choose To Protect Our Freedom !

undertheice

i take it you are referring to the rather dubious experiments performed in the early 1900's (i do not know that these experiments have been since reproduced and would appreciate any lead in that direction).

i would first ask the reliability of what is essentially 19th century equipment in measuring such small amounts. second, i would question the size of the sample. there were only six patients in these experiments and the weight loss was by no means consistent. though the first experiment purportedly yielded a 21 gram loss at the moment of death, the results of subsequent tests showed widely varying values or the data was corrupted through improper technique. finally, i can't help but wonder if those tests were even valid. the doctor in question set about to prove the existence of a quantifiable soul and, amazingly enough, he found one. out of an incredibly small number of subjects he determined that there might (or might not) be a minor weight fluctuation at the time of death and determined that this phantom weight-loss was caused by the soul taking flight.

i'm sorry, but the 21 grams myth is merely that, a myth.

....and is it humble to believe that the universe and all of its wonders was created merely so that a few true believers could perform their service to god? the point at which christians start claiming their moral superiority through their unequaled humility is the point at which i either steal quietly into the kitchen to vomit into the trash can or start screaming "foul" at the top of my lungs (sometimes i do both, but not always in that order).

i won't bother to bore you with an account of religion's long history of violence, rape, torture, persecution and genocide in the name of some invisible man in the sky. i won't even bother to recount to you (a fine example of christian ethics in action) your own torrents of loathing aimed at gays, muslims, abortionists, the asinine left and anyone who does not follow your strictly christian(?) guidelines. all of this is a matter of record and not worth repeating.

instead i will give you my take on atheist morality and humility and leave it at that -

the atheist's begins life with no sense of moral superiority, he is the equal of the beasts until he raises himself beyond the needs of simple survival and even then his fate is the same as theirs. his kindnesses are his own, not mandated by some higher power. his evil deeds belong only to himself, there is no forgiveness sent from on high to excuse his misdeeds. the rewards of a life well lived are here and now, there are no loopholes through which he may gain redemption or attain some paradise. the punishments for his transgressions are equally immediate, aside from society's condemnation he has his own conscience to hound him 'til his death. there is no escape from such punishment and no special dispensation or divine intervention to relieve him of his responsibility. the atheist must accept personal responsibility for his every action throughout his life. if this is arrogance then so be it.

sadly, no. the human race is far too immature, both ethically and emotionally, to break away from the need for a guiding father without being forced to do so. if given a choice between freedom with responsibility and slavery with a promise of paradise, the common man will almost always choose the latter. the few attempts at atheist society have all been under the control of those who would replace the authority of god with their own deification. such is the world we live in (heavy sigh ).

though much of the evidence on such subjects has been proven to be fraudulent, there is still much that is unexplained. the problem with much of the experimentation in this area is the interpretation of events.
it's too bad that more honest research isn't done on the subject; but, since the field is so clouded by preconceptions of mysticism, most experimentation in that area has been looked upon with suspicion by the majority of the scientific community.

i would, however, like you to take a look at the very terminology you have used (energy, repeats itself in a loop etc.) does this not sound as though there might be some rational scientific explanation for these occurrences? as i have said before; atheism does not preclude the possibility of concepts outside of our understanding, it merely denies the existence of an all powerful deity that some claim has dominion over all of creation.




i hope this all made sense. i copped a hell of a buzz this morning and i wasn't quite prepared to go on a rant like this.

__________________
I know that two and two make four - and should be glad to prove it too if I could - though I must say if by any sort of process I could convert two and two into five it would give me much greater pleasure.

halffoot

I was going to type an explination for why thats an incorrect assumption, but I happened to find that once more, wikipedia beat me too it. First off:

"A humble person is generally thought to be unpretentious and modest: someone who does not think that he or she is better or more important than others."

You see, by definition, its unnecessary to believe that there is some omnipotent being you have to prostrate yourself before to be humble. Just because atheists don't believe theres a God who's better than all of humanity, doesn't mean that they're narcissistic or self aggrandizing, because they can still think that they themselves are but a small part of human civilization. I personally have a great level of humility, I am well aware that there are a number of things I don't know and don't understand, as well as tasks I am unsuited for, people I could never get along with, so on and so forth, which is why self-improvement is a major factor of my life. Just because I aim to improve myself for my own purposes and my family and friends doesn't make me arrogant. And once more from wikipedia.

"Spiritual views on humility are contrasted with religious views on humility in that spirituality, by definition, is often personal and thus has a direct impact only on one's particular self or state of being, whereas religious views are generally considered more rigid, wherein a specific set of rules or laws are put in place to govern how modest or audacious is appropriate in a given situation. in other words, spirituality is an avenue through which humility can be shown or explored, but, once more by definition, is not a governing force unless one chooses it to be."

As for morality being incompatible with survival of the fittest, that fails to take into account that human beings are, by nature, a social animal, and society, by and large, defines morality and shuns those who discard it. Thus, moral behavior is beneficial to survival, because it enables humans to live together peacefully(relatively) and as such, prosper.

Natural_Mystic_Jon

This might actually have been one of the best discussions on this subject I've ever read. Really well thought out. I'm not a Christian or an atheist, but I too believe in core human morals and values, what our friend Yeshua of Nazareth called "The Golden Rule". It's all karma, my friends, do unto others as you would have done to you. What you put out into the universe comes back to you, isn't that a pretty universal idea in religion?



[[note by tokin...

i heartily apologise, i thought that i had hit the quote button, when it was the edit one that i actually pressed.
my bad]]

halffoot

Change that last word from religion to humanity and I'm with you 100%. I'm glad you've enjoyed our little discussion.

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tokinGLX

buddhism has been teaching a very similar message, long before ol yeshua was born. in fact, some people firmly believe that a good deal of his teachings were simply buddhist teachings that were translated and spoken so that the people he was telling them to could understand their meaning.

but, that doesnt necessarily mean that it is true. any religion that applies its own original thought towards basic human morals will come up with similar ideas. dont kill, dont steal, and treat others with kindness/as you would wish them to treat you.
[[clicked the reply button this time
(':
sorry again]]

__________________
united we toke, divided we choke.
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Natural_Mystic_Jon

That's all true, but, for the sake of simplicity, I had only referred to Yeshua. But Guatama Buddha said the same things, as well as many other 'enlightened' individuals, which just goes to show that the best religious advice is use common sense, at least in my opinion.
PS-- It's all cool mang, don't sweat it ^_^

Torog