'The Golden Compass' goes South - way South

Torog · 12-10-2007, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pitcard

Times are changing, we all have to deal with it. Maniac Christians aren't really helping the cause either, probably only hurting it more. And you act like this movie is the first piece of entertainment that was a slander towards religion, I'm sure there were many more.

As for the children getting 'poisoned', I don't think that's true. People young enough to be gullible aren't seeing this movie without permission from parents. And it's not like the movie is saying "YOU SHOULD HATE GOD BECAUSE...", it's only based around killing a God-like symbol.

To be honest, all this controversy is making me want to read the books and see the movie. If it wasn't for radical Christians raving about how it's evil, I wouldn't have given it a second thought.

Howdy Pitcard,

By all means-please watch the movie and read the books,I'd appreciate yer opinion on them.

Have a good one !

PS: Do ya consider Chuck Norris to be a 'radical' Christian ?

Pitcard · 12-10-2007, 06:25 PM

I consider Chuck Norris to be a worn out joke.

undertheice · 12-11-2007, 03:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torog

I realize that those who agree with you on religion,have every right to fight back..but in return for yer support--what do ya have to offer,if ya win ?

The death of hope ? An uncertain future based on imperfect human character ? Who amongst Humanity,is the perfect leader that you'll place all of your trust in ?

since when is the future certain? where are we to find perfection? religion offers beautiful dreams with an omnipotent leader to guide you, just follow the rules and genuflect on cue and it can all be yours. what a wonderful fairy tale. we all know that reality is a bit dirtier than that, now don't we. perfection is that unreachable ideal that we all strive for, knowing that we are doomed to failure. hopes are dashed every day, but we still dream because we are the dreamers and there is always that off chance that this time it will all come together.

this is no small game where all is won or lost on the turn of a card. some players waste their time here dreaming of that perfection after death and hoping for some benevolent parent to make all the bad things go away. others bind their dreams with the gifts of logic and reason in hopes of creating a more perfect future before the grave instead of beyond it. there is no win, there is no lose, there is only the perpetual game and the players.

we are the leaders; imperfect, but leading none the less. we are leading toward an uncertain future because anything that hasn't already happened must be uncertain and anything that has already happened is hardly worth the effort of repeating. we can't help but despise those who only worship death and the perfection of the grave because our struggle is on this side of eternity. we can't help but reject the concept that change is evil when life is change. we can't help but view with disgust the waste of a life lived in fantasy when reality is where all the really interesting shit goes on.

Quote:

In regards to paranoid delusions of being persecuted by "godless heathens",are ya referring to the delusion of yesterday's attack .....

we are all under attack every day and christians have no special dispensation that allows them to avoid the ugliness of the world. i've been attacked for being white, i've been stabbed for having long hair, i've been shot just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. i don't consider any of it persecution, merely the price of living in a violent and primitive world. any group that sets themselves apart and above the rest of society and then has the audacity to declare themselves persecuted when others take offense at their feigned superiority can expect little sympathy from me. christianity has spent centuries trying to make over the world to suit the fancy of some lost desert tribe and the adherents to that doctrine should expect to reap what they have sown. they have destroyed in order to spread the truth, they have killed in order to save and they have enslaved in order to free us all. well; there never was any truth, that which they wish to save was meant to be spent and we were free in the first place.

Quote:

Christian children and children of other faiths,are under constant attacks from the Left,atheists and gays,Norris didn't want to see them subjected to yet another attack..of a satanic nature at the hands of an atheist.....

since when are logic and reason things to be feared? why are the opinions of others so dangerous to the believers? when was it decided that freedom was evil? there is something desperately wrong with a way of life when the believers feel they must keep their children from experiencing anything that may disagree with established doctrine. shouldn't your children be allowed to see all that life has to offer in order to make an informed choice or is it knowledge that you fear? these aren't attacks just bits of information, some correct and others not. the real offense seems to be that those children were not given the chance to see all that the world has to offer before being indoctrinated into a life of fantasy.

halffoot · 12-11-2007, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torog

Children are under constant attack from atheists,homosexuals and left-leaners,all whom wish to side-step parents and exploit children directly,this is another front-line in the Culture War. Amen to being a disciple of Jesus Christ !

Yes, because none of those people could possibly have children, so they're clearly trying to corrupt yours.

Sounds to me like you wish to declare 'war' on anyone who holds different views, which, to me, sounds an awful lot like fascism.

And for the nth time, confusing 'atheism' with 'satanism' just goes to further prove your complete misunderstanding of atheism in general.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbones

i was an atheist from birth to 19 then had an awakening.

And to tear your whole argument asunder, here we have it, empirical evidence that exposure to atheism as a child doesn't really mean shit in the greater scheme of things.

If someone raised atheist can become a Christian, what makes you think a metaphor about questioning authority in a 2 hour movie will undo a lifetime(even a short one) of Christian upbringing in the children you claim it will 'corrupt'?

Torog · 12-11-2007, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by undertheice

since when is the future certain? where are we to find perfection? religion offers beautiful dreams with an omnipotent leader to guide you, just follow the rules and genuflect on cue and it can all be yours. what a wonderful fairy tale. we all know that reality is a bit dirtier than that, now don't we. perfection is that unreachable ideal that we all strive for, knowing that we are doomed to failure. hopes are dashed every day, but we still dream because we are the dreamers and there is always that off chance that this time it will all come together.

this is no small game where all is won or lost on the turn of a card. some players waste their time here dreaming of that perfection after death and hoping for some benevolent parent to make all the bad things go away. others bind their dreams with the gifts of logic and reason in hopes of creating a more perfect future before the grave instead of beyond it. there is no win, there is no lose, there is only the perpetual game and the players.

we are the leaders; imperfect, but leading none the less. we are leading toward an uncertain future because anything that hasn't already happened must be uncertain and anything that has already happened is hardly worth the effort of repeating. we can't help but despise those who only worship death and the perfection of the grave because our struggle is on this side of eternity. we can't help but reject the concept that change is evil when life is change. we can't help but view with disgust the waste of a life lived in fantasy when reality is where all the really interesting shit goes on.

we are all under attack every day and christians have no special dispensation that allows them to avoid the ugliness of the world. i've been attacked for being white, i've been stabbed for having long hair, i've been shot just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. i don't consider any of it persecution, merely the price of living in a violent and primitive world. any group that sets themselves apart and above the rest of society and then has the audacity to declare themselves persecuted when others take offense at their feigned superiority can expect little sympathy from me. christianity has spent centuries trying to make over the world to suit the fancy of some lost desert tribe and the adherents to that doctrine should expect to reap what they have sown. they have destroyed in order to spread the truth, they have killed in order to save and they have enslaved in order to free us all. well; there never was any truth, that which they wish to save was meant to be spent and we were free in the first place.

since when are logic and reason things to be feared? why are the opinions of others so dangerous to the believers? when was it decided that freedom was evil? there is something desperately wrong with a way of life when the believers feel they must keep their children from experiencing anything that may disagree with established doctrine. shouldn't your children be allowed to see all that life has to offer in order to make an informed choice or is it knowledge that you fear? these aren't attacks just bits of information, some correct and others not. the real offense seems to be that those children were not given the chance to see all that the world has to offer before being indoctrinated into a life of fantasy.

Howdy undertheice,

Once again,you grace us with a very eloquent and persuasive response.

While I agree that children should be informed and knowledgable about 'reality',where we differ is in treating little children-like little adults..I think that children should just be children and not have to deal with matters that adults should deal with and have tools for doing such.

I stated previously,that Chuck Norris put out this warning to his fellow Christian parents..not to atheists and 'realists',I'm simply passing on this warning to my fellow cannabinaut Christian parents..there are more here than you realize.

Ever hear the phrase" We're gonna 'reason' ourselves out of existance.." ?

Of course,true faith is not gonna dissapear after watching this movie,but it is a sneak attack on all children,and no one of Faith,should support such with their money.

Have a good one ...

Torog · 12-11-2007, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by halffoot

Yes, because none of those people could possibly have children, so they're clearly trying to corrupt yours.

Sounds to me like you wish to declare 'war' on anyone who holds different views, which, to me, sounds an awful lot like fascism.

And for the nth time, confusing 'atheism' with 'satanism' just goes to further prove your complete misunderstanding of atheism in general.

And to tear your whole argument asunder, here we have it, empirical evidence that exposure to atheism as a child doesn't really mean sh*t in the greater scheme of things.

If someone raised atheist can become a Christian, what makes you think a metaphor about questioning authority in a 2 hour movie will undo a lifetime(even a short one) of Christian upbringing in the children you claim it will 'corrupt'?

Howdy halffoot,

I compare atheism with satanism because their goals appear to be congruent and supportive of each other. I realize that atheists by their very nature of belief,logic and reason,don't believe in anything but their own power.

I don't know if jimbones was exposed to atheism as a child,his mother is religious,so maybe it was his father that was atheist,the important thing is that something happened to change his view of everything and he invited God and Jesus,into his heart.

This warning was to parents of faith with children of faith,so that parents can keep their children from being exposed to a devious attack on their values and religious beliefs..if just one child turns away from God..then Pullman has won and so has satan.

Have a good one ...

undertheice · 12-13-2007, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torog

where we differ is in treating little children-like little adults..I think that children should just be children and not have to deal with matters that adults should deal with and have tools for doing such.

so it's all right to indoctrinate children into the christian death cult, but not to expose them to reason and the possibility that the bible is just a bunch of marginally interesting stories? christianity instills the greatest fear of all into our children, the fear of eternal damnation, and you seem to consider this preferable to allowing them to experience differing opinions. there are many things in this world that children need not be exposed to - violence, hatred, perversion and such - but logic is one of mankind's greatest tools and to keep them from its exercise is just another crime that can be laid at the doorstep of religion. we start making choices at an early age and unless our reason is up to the challenge we are doomed to many a foolhardy mistake. christianity is a philosophy of eternal childhood, with an all-seeing father to watch over its adherents, and even small children must understand that childhood eventually ends. by refusing to allow them to apply some amount of reason to the philosophy that will guide their lives you are stunting their intellectual growth and dooming them to be trapped in a world of fairy tales. to come by one's faith as a thinking adult is a legitimate action. to be indoctrinated from birth into a belief is a crime and it merely creates a generation of knee-jerk christians who are nearly incapable of seeing the logical fallacies inherent in its doctrines.

Quote:

I compare atheism with satanism because their goals appear to be congruent and supportive of each other. I realize that atheists by their very nature of belief,logic and reason,don't believe in anything but their own power.

thank you for this view into the perverse mindset of christian fundamentalism. of course atheists must be aligned with satan, the eternal antagonist of your great and all-powerful(?) god. our beliefs differ from yours, therefore we must be evil. your limited view of good and evil must, of course, lump me together with murderers, rapists and sodomites and we must all, of course, burn in eternal damnation. are you incapable of seeing nonbelievers as anything but evil, self-centered creatures who live only to wreak havoc and to satisfy their own carnal lusts.

i've tried this before, but i'll give it another shot-
an atheist is nothing more than one who will not or cannot buy in to the popular mythologies of god(s) and their surrounding dogmas. we cannot be at war with god, such a creature cannot exist within our belief systems. by denying the existence of god we do not claim any great power for ourselves, we only claim that our greatest power lies within those gifts which seem to be unique to our species. our capacity for reason and abstract thought are our greatest source of power, but that doesn't mean that there is no greater power. the earth itself has shown that it is quite capable of overwhelming any of its inhabitants and this is only one small sphere in an infinite universe. as great as our intellect may be, we cannot even begin to comprehend the vastness of the reality in which we exist; so to claim any ultimate power would be an act of unmitigated gall and unsurpassed hubris (i know that's a bit redundant, but it bears a little overstatement - don't you think?).

we can, however, claim dominion over our own minds and control of our own destinies. freed of all the deistic nonsense; we are able to take full responsibility for our thoughts and actions and to realize that we do not exist in a static bubble, but an ever changing landscape where even the man-made absolutes of good and evil can be adapted to fit any present condition. the essential concept is "responsibility". while the christian may claim that his conduct can be excused by the laws handed down from some heavenly father, the atheist has no such excuse. our transgressions are our own and the onus is ours alone to bear. there is no back door to paradise for the atheist. there is no paradise at all, other than the one which we ourselves are able to create. there is no punishment awaiting us for our sins, other than the punishments that we must condemn ourselves to and those are inescapable.

it would seem that religion, as a tool used to restrain people from bad behavior, is all fine and dandy, but it has been taken too far. instead of a vehicle to steer us away from self destruction, it has become a means of separating us (my belief is that this is what it was meant to do all along, but that's another matter entirely) and excusing the very acts which it condemns. try as you might to separate the idea of god from religious dogma, it is impossible. religion created our current concepts of god and the two are forever entwined. atheism allows us to escape the prejudices of the past and encourages our morality to evolve along with the natural evolution of society and the species. though some might claim that their status as an atheist frees them from the constraints of morality, nothing could be further from the truth. a world without god demands that we all take personal responsibility for the actions of ourselves and those around us or the entire existence of humanity amounts to nothing.

Quote:

if just one child turns away from God..then Pullman has won and so has satan.

oh, pity the poor child who chooses reason over superstition, enlightenment over slavery. with all that is going on in the world, i would think that any sane person could see that the time of these primitive myths must come to an end lest they destroy us all. these constant pissing battles over whose invisible man is better, over which fairy tale should enslave the globe, will never end. isn't it better that our children take responsibility for their own lives than that they die to defend the bigotries of the past.

reason is not satan - the god myth has become the greatest evil.

----------------------------------------------------

i realize that this has all far surpassed the bounds of this arts and entertainment sub-forum, but i just can't help myself.

Torog · 12-13-2007, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by undertheice

so it's all right to indoctrinate children into the christian death cult, but not to expose them to reason and the possibility that the bible is just a bunch of marginally interesting stories? christianity instills the greatest fear of all into our children, the fear of eternal damnation, and you seem to consider this preferable to allowing them to experience differing opinions. there are many things in this world that children need not be exposed to - violence, hatred, perversion and such - but logic is one of mankind's greatest tools and to keep them from its exercise is just another crime that can be laid at the doorstep of religion. we start making choices at an early age and unless our reason is up to the challenge we are doomed to many a foolhardy mistake. christianity is a philosophy of eternal childhood, with an all-seeing father to watch over its adherents, and even small children must understand that childhood eventually ends. by refusing to allow them to apply some amount of reason to the philosophy that will guide their lives you are stunting their intellectual growth and dooming them to be trapped in a world of fairy tales. to come by one's faith as a thinking adult is a legitimate action. to be indoctrinated from birth into a belief is a crime and it merely creates a generation of knee-jerk christians who are nearly incapable of seeing the logical fallacies inherent in its doctrines.

thank you for this view into the perverse mindset of christian fundamentalism. of course atheists must be aligned with satan, the eternal antagonist of your great and all-powerful(?) god. our beliefs differ from yours, therefore we must be evil. your limited view of good and evil must, of course, lump me together with murderers, rapists and sodomites and we must all, of course, burn in eternal damnation. are you incapable of seeing nonbelievers as anything but evil, self-centered creatures who live only to wreak havoc and to satisfy their own carnal lusts.

i've tried this before, but i'll give it another shot-
an atheist is nothing more than one who will not or cannot buy in to the popular mythologies of god(s) and their surrounding dogmas. we cannot be at war with god, such a creature cannot exist within our belief systems. by denying the existence of god we do not claim any great power for ourselves, we only claim that our greatest power lies within those gifts which seem to be unique to our species. our capacity for reason and abstract thought are our greatest source of power, but that doesn't mean that there is no greater power. the earth itself has shown that it is quite capable of overwhelming any of its inhabitants and this is only one small sphere in an infinite universe. as great as our intellect may be, we cannot even begin to comprehend the vastness of the reality in which we exist; so to claim any ultimate power would be an act of unmitigated gall and unsurpassed hubris (i know that's a bit redundant, but it bears a little overstatement - don't you think?).

we can, however, claim dominion over our own minds and control of our own destinies. freed of all the deistic nonsense; we are able to take full responsibility for our thoughts and actions and to realize that we do not exist in a static bubble, but an ever changing landscape where even the man-made absolutes of good and evil can be adapted to fit any present condition. the essential concept is "responsibility". while the christian may claim that his conduct can be excused by the laws handed down from some heavenly father, the atheist has no such excuse. our transgressions are our own and the onus is ours alone to bear. there is no back door to paradise for the atheist. there is no paradise at all, other than the one which we ourselves are able to create. there is no punishment awaiting us for our sins, other than the punishments that we must condemn ourselves to and those are inescapable.

it would seem that religion, as a tool used to restrain people from bad behavior, is all fine and dandy, but it has been taken too far. instead of a vehicle to steer us away from self destruction, it has become a means of separating us (my belief is that this is what it was meant to do all along, but that's another matter entirely) and excusing the very acts which it condemns. try as you might to separate the idea of god from religious dogma, it is impossible. religion created our current concepts of god and the two are forever entwined. atheism allows us to escape the prejudices of the past and encourages our morality to evolve along with the natural evolution of society and the species. though some might claim that their status as an atheist frees them from the constraints of morality, nothing could be further from the truth. a world without god demands that we all take personal responsibility for the actions of ourselves and those around us or the entire existence of humanity amounts to nothing.

oh, pity the poor child who chooses reason over superstition, enlightenment over slavery. with all that is going on in the world, i would think that any sane person could see that the time of these primitive myths must come to an end lest they destroy us all. these constant pissing battles over whose invisible man is better, over which fairy tale should enslave the globe, will never end. isn't it better that our children take responsibility for their own lives than that they die to defend the bigotries of the past.

reason is not satan - the god myth has become the greatest evil.

----------------------------------------------------

i realize that this has all far surpassed the bounds of this arts and entertainment sub-forum, but i just can't help myself.

Howdy undertheice,

You start off by asking whether it's okay to "indoctrinate children into the christian death cult"..and by claiming that the "bible is just a bunch of marginally interesting stories",you also point out several times,that the "bible is just a bunch of fairy tales"..if such is true,then one would have to also believe that the Roman Empire,was just a fairy tale too. The Bible is supported by many,many historical facts and independent documents and archaeological evidence..are you claiming that all of that is just a fairy tale ?

Also,why do you call "christianity a death cult" ? As far as I know,I ain't heard of any homicide bombers that were Christians..did I miss that ? I don't expect to be rewarded for murdering non-Christians,but it seems that muslims are of the belief that they will be rewarded for murdering non-muslims..wouldn't it be more accurate to describe Islam as a "death cult" ?

As a Christian,I believe in the life of the spirit..that the flesh is nothing and the spirit is life..I celebrate life--not death..I don't seek to martyr myself and others,in order to gain a Heavenly reward..but there's a religion that does such..and that would be Islam.

When you claim that teaching children about the Bible and Jesus Christ is a crime,doesn't that constitute a coercion of dis-belief ? Doesn't it also reveal the hidden objective of atheists and secular-progressives,to banish all religions ? If so,then yer goal is akin to the policies in communist China.

Yer claim that being religious is locking one's self into a fantasy world,bereft of logic and reason,is a popular claim,when in fact-it takes a great deal of logic and reason,to recouncile the differences between religious beliefs and the secular world.

I don't lump atheists in with criminals,I just think that they are mis-guided folks,nor do I believe that they are evil either,in an intentional sense,homosexuals aren't inherently evil either,they can be saved from themselves and lead normal lives.

Christianity is not static as you claim,but rather has static values,we're fully capable of adapting and changing,according to the current state of society,there are Christians who believe that it's just fine for women to be preachers and allow un-repentant homosexuals to attend church,they're wrong for doing such,of course..they're just being politically-correct.

I have not claimed that reason is evil,I'm all for reason-it's a valuable tool,as well as logic.

Have a good one ...

undertheice · 12-15-2007, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torog

The Bible is supported by many,many historical facts and independent documents and archaeological evidence..are you claiming that all of that is just a fairy tale ?

while i will agree that many biblical places and people might very well have existed, the ongoing theme of mysticism and the supernatural definitely places these books into the realm of fantasy. if written today, it would be relegated to some dusty back shelf of the book store and eventually find its way to the discount bin. as literature it is a tawdry and boring read, filled with stereotypes and redundant tales that are found gripping only by adherents to that particular cult.

Quote:

Also,why do you call "christianity a death cult" ?

i'm never sure which term, "death" or "cult", christians seem more offended by when i trot out this particular phrase.

from the outside all of these so-called religions seem pretty much the same. give the folks something to worship, set up some rules and a hierarchy to enlighten the flock, give them all some punishments to fear and rewards to work towards, then just convince the gullible that god needs a bigger house and wait for the cash to roll in. in most cases the only reward that is offered is some sort of paradise after your death.

when your goal can only be attained upon your death, what is it you are really worshiping but a god of death? with millions and millions of christians breathlessly awaiting "the rapture" and an end to this earthly life, how can you rationally call it anything else? you might try to side step the issue and call it eternal life, but that's just hollow rhetoric. this, right here and now, is what we have and to waste it in empty dreams of "a better place" seems nothing more than worshiping the end of life.

Quote:

When you claim that teaching children about the Bible and Jesus Christ is a crime,doesn't that constitute a coercion of dis-belief ? Doesn't it also reveal the hidden objective of atheists and secular-progressives,to banish all religions ? If so,then yer goal is akin to the policies in communist China.

this is no hidden agenda, at least for me. without the elitist mentality engendered by religion, a great deal of the hatred in this world would need a more rational cause to rally behind and be much easier to deal with. without religion to inflame the hearts of the simple-minded, real problems could be addressed instead of wasting our time warring over whose invisible man is best.

your example of china misses the point entirely. modern attempts at building atheist states have all replaced religion with a cult of personality, where a leader is nearly deified in order to give the masses a rallying point. replacing an invisible god with an earthly one is just exchanging one set of chains for another. any rational atheist must understand that self-control and personal responsibility are the most important factors when living in a world free of the god myth.

Quote:

Yer claim that being religious is locking one's self into a fantasy world,bereft of logic and reason,is a popular claim,when in fact-it takes a great deal of logic and reason,to reconcile the differences between religious beliefs and the secular world.

i've seen this sort of "reason" all too often. circular logic and turning a blind eye to paradox seem to be necessary in the world of the rational believer.

Quote:

I don't lump atheists in with criminals,I just think that they are mis-guided folks,nor do I believe that they are evil either,in an intentional sense,homosexuals aren't inherently evil either,they can be saved from themselves and lead normal lives.

yet your belief would have us all damned to unending torment in the pits of hell. the narrow view of what is normal and what is right that is held by the believers of the one true faith (whichever one that is) considers many of us in need of re-education. most of us, in fact. our views promote evil or our actions are seen as an abomination or we just don't fit in with god's great plan. you created an omnipotent god and, to excuse the imperfect creations of your perfect being, you created his enemy. it seems that we are the tools of that enemy as you are the tools of the light.

Torog · 12-16-2007, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by undertheice

while i will agree that many biblical places and people might very well have existed, the ongoing theme of mysticism and the supernatural definitely places these books into the realm of fantasy. if written today, it would be relegated to some dusty back shelf of the book store and eventually find its way to the discount bin. as literature it is a tawdry and boring read, filled with stereotypes and redundant tales that are found gripping only by adherents to that particular cult.

i'm never sure which term, "death" or "cult", christians seem more offended by when i trot out this particular phrase.

from the outside all of these so-called religions seem pretty much the same. give the folks something to worship, set up some rules and a hierarchy to enlighten the flock, give them all some punishments to fear and rewards to work towards, then just convince the gullible that god needs a bigger house and wait for the cash to roll in. in most cases the only reward that is offered is some sort of paradise after your death.

when your goal can only be attained upon your death, what is it you are really worshiping but a god of death? with millions and millions of christians breathlessly awaiting "the rapture" and an end to this earthly life, how can you rationally call it anything else? you might try to side step the issue and call it eternal life, but that's just hollow rhetoric. this, right here and now, is what we have and to waste it in empty dreams of "a better place" seems nothing more than worshiping the end of life.

this is no hidden agenda, at least for me. without the elitist mentality engendered by religion, a great deal of the hatred in this world would need a more rational cause to rally behind and be much easier to deal with. without religion to inflame the hearts of the simple-minded, real problems could be addressed instead of wasting our time warring over whose invisible man is best.

your example of china misses the point entirely. modern attempts at building atheist states have all replaced religion with a cult of personality, where a leader is nearly deified in order to give the masses a rallying point. replacing an invisible god with an earthly one is just exchanging one set of chains for another. any rational atheist must understand that self-control and personal responsibility are the most important factors when living in a world free of the god myth.

i've seen this sort of "reason" all too often. circular logic and turning a blind eye to paradox seem to be necessary in the world of the rational believer.

yet your belief would have us all damned to unending torment in the pits of hell. the narrow view of what is normal and what is right that is held by the believers of the one true faith (whichever one that is) considers many of us in need of re-education. most of us, in fact. our views promote evil or our actions are seen as an abomination or we just don't fit in with god's great plan. you created an omnipotent god and, to excuse the imperfect creations of your perfect being, you created his enemy. it seems that we are the tools of that enemy as you are the tools of the light.

Howdy undertheice,

If the Bible is as irrelevant as you claim-then why are Christians being killed,tortured,imprisoned and enslaved-around the world ? If the Bible is as harmless as you claim,then why do some goverments and religions,have such a great fear of it ?

There are many great rewards of a spiritual nature,that can be had by following the Gospel of Christ,which equates directly into joy in the here and now,while still on the mor

'The Golden Compass' goes South - way South

Movies and Television